00:00:00 Key question before we even get started is, do you see x-rays?

00:00:04 Sure, but only on destruction.

00:00:07 When they collide with metal or something like that, or when they self-destruct?

00:00:11 I'm sure if you look more carefully, you're going to see those lines,

00:00:17 which have been seen by MITES and so on.

00:00:21 Namely, you should have a line around 5kV, a line around 30kV, and so on.

00:00:29 We certainly see them around 2.

00:00:31 What?

00:00:32 Around 2kV.

00:00:33 Yeah, to add 2 also.

00:00:36 2, 5 or 6, I don't remember the exact figure, and something around 30.

00:00:42 Now, but the lines that you're talking about are lines having to do with the new hydrogenic states.

00:00:49 And they are, as I understand it, canonists working with,

00:00:53 well, that might come up in the results of, say, the evolution or destruction of these clusters.

00:00:59 The clusters themselves are not hydrogenic in nature.

00:01:02 Meaning your clusters are clusters of electrons?

00:01:07 They can be clusters of practically anything, but electrons are usual.

00:01:11 Okay, so let me make an introduction.

00:01:13 Maybe just introduce you, first of all.

00:01:15 Thanks.

00:01:16 Okay, we're here on June 25th, 1999.

00:01:21 We have the great good fortune of having Ken Shoulders with us to introduce his work on charged clusters.

00:01:29 We also have Jean-Pierre Vigée, Jacques Serfati, Vladimir Poponin,

00:01:34 Krian Levitt, Faustin Bray, and Jean Bichemin.

00:01:40 Can I have a couple questions first?

00:01:42 Okay.

00:01:45 I heard through the grapevine that basically it was Henry Dakin grapevine,

00:01:52 that something was happening, some kind of organization was being formed.

00:01:57 Later found out it was ISSO.

00:02:00 So I'd really like to know what ISSO is.

00:02:02 Can somebody tell me what the intents are and what the likelihoods are going to be?

00:02:08 What the what are?

00:02:09 What the likelihood is going to be.

00:02:11 What's likely to happen?

00:02:13 What's likely to happen for the first year of ISSO's existence

00:02:17 is that we're going to bring a number of scientists,

00:02:24 such as Jean-Pierre and yourself and others who we have common interest with,

00:02:31 through this sort of salon-slash-workshop environment.

00:02:38 We're going to find out which of these people have the most overlap

00:02:49 with particularly the possibilities of funding some experiments

00:02:56 and some additional theoretical work in new propulsion technologies

00:03:02 and new energy production technologies

00:03:05 based upon what I'll call frontier physics.

00:03:09 Not fringe, but also not in the academic mainstream.

00:03:14 That's stuff that's right in between.

00:03:17 Cold fusion is an example of one of these things,

00:03:20 except that our budget right now is not really big enough

00:03:23 to go after the cold fusion question

00:03:25 because there's plenty of other teams working on that now.

00:03:28 It's a big topic.

00:03:29 So we're looking for some other aspects of new physics

00:03:39 that could use a small infusion of money and time to help it blossom.

00:03:49 Do you have any structural outline yet for your organization?

00:03:57 No, not really.

00:03:58 We've just been up and running, if you can call this up and running, for a week.

00:04:05 Actually, that's ISSS, or I don't know.

00:04:10 International Space Sciences Organization.

00:04:13 That's the organization that's basically paying for us to be here right now.

00:04:18 I found out what it really is.

00:04:20 Is so.

00:04:21 Is so.

00:04:23 Not quite.

00:04:24 Remember Picard saying, make it so?

00:04:28 The message was there all the time.

00:04:29 Make it so.

00:04:31 Not it so.

00:04:32 We were wrong.

00:04:33 Maybe we should have changed to it so.

00:04:36 International Technology and Space Sciences Organization.

00:04:39 Make it so.

00:04:40 Make it so.

00:04:41 The message has been there.

00:04:42 That's good, Ken.

00:04:43 I like that.

00:04:44 I didn't think of that.

00:04:45 Now, depending on the intended use of what's called preliminary information,

00:04:53 that's anything that sort of flows freely in this video and so forth,

00:04:57 I have to pick and choose what I say in order to guard certain proprietary things.

00:05:02 But I don't really have much problem because I can talk here, as far as I'm concerned,

00:05:08 out of what is published or near-published.

00:05:13 That is, I consider it junk anyway, so there's no use worrying about it.

00:05:16 Ken, can you give us a little picture as to where you're coming from in terms of your own organization?

00:05:22 Because we don't know anything.

00:05:23 I'll do that.

00:05:24 Simple one.

00:05:25 And also let me mention that if you wish to have us,

00:05:31 if you would like to disclose certain things to us under formal conditions,

00:05:35 signed non-disclosure type agreements at a later date, we can make that happen.

00:05:41 There's no need for that now.

00:05:42 Okay.

00:05:43 There's plenty to cover.

00:05:44 All right, fine.

00:05:45 I can guarantee saturation without having to get into that.

00:05:50 So do you have a company or something?

00:05:52 I've never liked company names.

00:05:54 That's just a personal thing with me.

00:05:56 I work with my son.

00:05:58 We work very near where I live.

00:06:01 You have to cross through the garage to get to the laboratory.

00:06:04 But it's not a company name.

00:06:07 It's just I use my name.

00:06:09 And it causes so much disruption in the world.

00:06:12 I probably keep it that way because I like that.

00:06:15 When you call someone on the telephone and they want to know,

00:06:18 what company are you with, you know, that effect you get.

00:06:20 Yeah, well, we're all the same way about that.

00:06:23 None.

00:06:24 There's not a blank for none.

00:06:26 But are you an electrical engineer?

00:06:28 So like Henry, is your background in electrical engineering?

00:06:30 I have been very fortunate in that I've totally avoided the academic system my whole life.

00:06:36 I'm unwashed but totally clean of that particular contamination.

00:06:42 I really can learn anything there is to be that I need to learn.

00:06:47 I can be taught nothing.

00:06:49 I've been that way all my life.

00:06:50 And I caught on very soon that I should not go to school.

00:06:54 So I didn't.

00:06:55 But you know Henry, right?

00:06:57 Oh, yeah.

00:06:58 So you know each other for a long time?

00:07:00 No.

00:07:01 A few years now.

00:07:04 I have always worked as an independent contractor.

00:07:07 I expect to continue that way.

00:07:10 It's the only way I can get free enough of organizational constraints.

00:07:17 All those problems that go with it.

00:07:19 Some of them are so thin and vaporous that you wouldn't believe it to be a constraint

00:07:26 until you find that it is affecting you in some way.

00:07:29 So I've learned a lot about what not to do.

00:07:31 And I try to stay in my arena.

00:07:34 And it's a difficult one at times because it's just not normal.

00:07:40 When you fall out of the norm, you're in trouble.

00:07:44 I stay in trouble all the time.

00:07:46 But, I mean, you're basically an experimental.

00:07:48 I mean, you're like an engineer.

00:07:49 I mean, you're hands-on.

00:07:51 I think.

00:07:52 You build gadgets.

00:07:53 But I don't theorize.

00:07:55 He's an inventor.

00:07:56 Yeah, you're an inventor.

00:07:57 I like to be called an inventor.

00:07:59 In fact, on my tax form I write down I'm an inventor.

00:08:02 And finally I got audited and they said, what is an inventor?

00:08:05 So we told them.

00:08:07 Oh, that's nice.

00:08:09 But the main thing I want to do here

00:08:14 is to give you a real quick brushing, if you will,

00:08:19 of some of these things that I've been working on

00:08:21 since this particular fact came up in about 1980.

00:08:25 And it's been constantly involving me ever since then, ever since.

00:08:32 But I do have one question.

00:08:34 Can I get a videotape of this particular session?

00:08:38 Sure.

00:08:39 Sure.

00:08:40 I'll make you one.

00:08:41 That'd be great.

00:08:42 I'd love to have it.

00:08:43 VHS if you have it.

00:08:44 Of course.

00:08:45 Good.

00:08:48 I wrote up a thing for Joe Furnish.

00:08:51 Project, I called it,

00:08:52 because I didn't know what this was in the beginning.

00:08:54 Except what Triana told me.

00:08:56 He said there will be something to do with exotic propulsion and exotic energy.

00:09:01 And I said to myself, well, where have you been all my life?

00:09:05 Because this is what I've been doing.

00:09:07 And there's no market for it.

00:09:08 There's no place to stick all this in the world.

00:09:10 So what I've been doing is squirreling it away, really,

00:09:15 and putting the part into the world that seems to take easily.

00:09:19 But I've had to bend some of this stuff mightily

00:09:21 to get it to be average and dumb enough to be put it in.

00:09:29 For example, there is a pile of patents that big, I'll show you that,

00:09:36 having to do with the electronic applications of these charged clusters.

00:09:43 But in that particular work, I had to mimic all existing electronic applications

00:09:49 that people knew about.

00:09:50 Otherwise, you can't put it in.

00:09:52 It just doesn't take.

00:09:53 There's no worry for it.

00:09:54 These are patents that you hold.

00:09:56 These are your patents.

00:09:57 These are patents that were held by the organization I was being paid by.

00:10:01 The organization got caught up because it was one man.

00:10:06 It was the Jupiter Toy Company.

00:10:08 No, it was different.

00:10:09 It was Bill Church.

00:10:10 Not our Bill Church.

00:10:11 No, the Bill Church from Alputtah.

00:10:12 Yeah.

00:10:13 Yeah.

00:10:14 Basically, he paid the bill for 17 years.

00:10:17 And so, you know, entitled to the patents.

00:10:20 Was this the Jupiter Toy Company?

00:10:22 Yes.

00:10:23 Oh, that's where I heard your name from.

00:10:24 Yeah, sure.

00:10:26 And then in about the mid-'80s, when the big SNL thing happened,

00:10:33 he took all of Bill's money.

00:10:35 Oh, that's what happened.

00:10:36 It really wrecked him.

00:10:37 It wrecked the little company.

00:10:39 And even the maintenance fees on the patents were too much for him to handle,

00:10:44 so he had to pass them off to Putoff.

00:10:47 Putoff couldn't afford to maintain even but one of those.

00:10:51 And so instead of the beautifully interlocked seven patents that there were originally,

00:10:55 they boiled down to one, which is probably very lame right now.

00:11:00 So what does that mean, that these patents are public domain now?

00:11:03 Anybody can do that.

00:11:04 Very likely.

00:11:05 Almost.

00:11:06 It wouldn't matter anyway because I've since superseded everything in them.

00:11:10 Okay, so they're obsolete anyway.

00:11:12 They're there for argument's purposes.

00:11:15 That's about it.

00:11:17 But the problem has been that everything that I keep finding with, you know,

00:11:26 the best thought guidance I can generate to do the physical experiments,

00:11:32 everything I find is outrageous, and it doesn't fit well in the world.

00:11:37 So I just keep putting it in my kit bag.

00:11:41 You mean your experimental results are anomalous?

00:11:45 Very, and at times totally unbelievable,

00:11:49 but at other times so simple that they're easily done by anyone that's really interested.

00:11:55 So what the substance of this last paper was that I put on at this conference.

00:12:02 The coffee conference in D.C.?

00:12:03 Yeah.

00:12:04 Okay.

00:12:05 That conference was basically on the energy aspect

00:12:10 and some of the other similar aspects of these charge clusters,

00:12:16 and I found that there were a few things I could pick through that I would call my trash

00:12:23 that I could publish that could be all completely done for $60

00:12:31 if you're a reasonably good garage mechanic.

00:12:34 If you're in a company, it may cost you $300 for all the materials and the apparatus,

00:12:40 and they each show each of about six different experimental effects.

00:12:49 It shows something that I would have to call new physics.

00:12:53 It is something that just isn't describable by anything I know,

00:12:56 and I'm not up on all new physics,

00:12:59 but I'm up on enough of it to know that this is set outside somewhere.

00:13:03 So I would certainly like to expose you today to the details of that

00:13:08 and emphasize some things that were not emphasized in that paper.

00:13:12 I don't like emphasis because it usually means somebody that likes something

00:13:16 is going to grab the emphasis and hang you on the clothesline with it and distort it first.

00:13:23 So this is the most de-emphasized paper you'll ever see.

00:13:27 I'll even reverse terms occasionally, like things travel at a certain number,

00:13:32 not centimeters per second, but seconds per centimeter,

00:13:35 just to make sure they don't grab onto the usual terms, but whatever.

00:13:41 I'd like to then show you the overlap that I've considered for ISSO.

00:13:51 Are you starting or giving up?

00:13:53 That's the way mine starts.

00:13:57 The ISSO thing has the vaguest possible picture in my mind.

00:14:03 I can't tell you what you're doing.

00:14:05 So I just grabbed something and said,

00:14:08 this looks like what they ought to be doing, and this comes out of my kit bag,

00:14:12 and it's something I can absolutely do in a few spots,

00:14:15 and that's where we're going to have to really slow down and get careful

00:14:19 about what is absolutely reproducible without any questions at all.

00:14:24 Those things that are proprietary, completely outside, I won't talk about them at all,

00:14:31 and those things that are flimsy, hard to reproduce perhaps,

00:14:39 but interesting as heck, they are tantalizing.

00:14:43 If I can make those divisions, I will.

00:14:46 If you ask me a question, just shoot away at anything you want.

00:14:49 If I think it comes too close to something that I'll be dealt with at some other time,

00:14:54 maybe under other conditions, I'll just say, not today, please.

00:14:58 So with that, let me try to guide myself to save some time here.

00:15:07 You could draw pictures on the board.

00:15:10 We might summarize something back there in a minute.

00:15:14 But I've often found that if you say, I'm going to go here,

00:15:18 and you start out in this forward direction,

00:15:22 that a side-long glance is likely to show you something that you'd really rather do.

00:15:26 So you find yourself swaying over there, and pretty soon the main project is gone.

00:15:30 So I've got a trick. I'm going to pull that here.

00:15:33 I'm going to say, here's where we're going, right over here, the side trip.

00:15:38 And maybe that's going to cause us to go to the proper direction.

00:15:42 So let's see if that goes.

00:15:44 In order to do that side trip, I am suggesting something that is totally outrageous.

00:15:50 So don't hate me, partner, but this is just part of the game.

00:15:56 And that is that loud noise.

00:16:03 What I'm suggesting is that one of the more convenient ways to get to space

00:16:07 is to create a new entity with the energetics of space.

00:16:14 This is a very cool place here.

00:16:16 This is a very mild place.

00:16:18 It's hardly worth life.

00:16:19 It's amazing that we exist at all.

00:16:21 You know, we hang together with no binding energy, to speak of at all.

00:16:25 One electron volt barely holds us, you know, against the outrageous fortunes around us.

00:16:30 The hydrogen bonds between biological molecules are the weakest.

00:16:33 It's just force we can imagine.

00:16:35 It's just incredibly bad.

00:16:37 Now, I'm saying that let's build something more complex than we are by far,

00:16:43 built by electronic means, not the ordinary methods.

00:16:46 Without a nucleus, let's escape nuclear bondage.

00:16:49 And at the same time, this is serious nuclear bondage

00:16:52 because all a nucleus is for me is a way to hang electrons together.

00:16:59 But what does an electron cluster offer?

00:17:02 That new binding force that takes the place of chemistry.

00:17:05 We're going to have a chemical life thing, but we're going to look for binding energies around 2 kV.

00:17:09 So we're going to have a long life entity if we create it.

00:17:13 So I'm going to play that game and show you that energy arises very naturally from this new regime,

00:17:21 and that propulsion and energy will be so interchangeable

00:17:24 that you won't recognize when you've got one or the other, hardly.

00:17:27 A propulsion technique is just one of these energy forms that I flew with that is not symmetrical.

00:17:35 Now, that's a term that's going to have to be really dealt with in a minute, but we can get to that.

00:17:41 Now, you can apply a lot of fancy words to some of this stuff, like torsion field, this, that, and the other,

00:17:48 but I don't know what the structures are that I'm working with.

00:17:52 I've always said, well, they're toric-like.

00:17:54 These are little entities that would appear to be a donut.

00:18:00 And I've done all the numbers on the game, and others have done, too.

00:18:05 I have not the foggiest notion what they really are.

00:18:07 Do you mean you see plasma donut patterns?

00:18:11 Watch the word plasma here. That's another. No, no.

00:18:13 Okay.

00:18:14 Meaning you're producing purple lightning.

00:18:17 It is probably some form of that, but we always work in the miniature.

00:18:21 But it looks like a ring. You see, like ring structures.

00:18:24 It's a torus, probably.

00:18:26 But I don't know.

00:18:28 I've got some things I can show you that will indicate it has toric nature to it, but feeble data on that.

00:18:35 So that's one of those things I wouldn't attempt to define.

00:18:39 I feel very much like Thompson must have felt when he found electrons,

00:18:43 and he was wondering, well, what is this?

00:18:45 And finally he gave up and said, well, let's see what we can do to them.

00:18:48 And we don't know yet exactly what electrons are, but we're using them very well.

00:18:53 So that's the mode I've had to switch to for lack of knowledge.

00:18:58 I've had to pursue this as an entity that behaves in a certain way, and I can use it.

00:19:04 How big is it?

00:19:07 You start right in at the hard stuff, don't you?

00:19:11 Meaning you can produce ball lightning at will?

00:19:15 If balls are very tiny.

00:19:17 And then can you control their motion?

00:19:21 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

00:19:23 That's the whole electronic aspect of it.

00:19:26 But in that case, there is no question.

00:19:29 So they're electrical. Very nice.

00:19:32 But let's go back and play this game that I was talking about first.

00:19:36 So what I'll do is name some effects that I see.

00:19:42 And when we get through, we're going to name some deficiencies in the things that I see, some weak spots.

00:19:51 And then we're going to try to assemble all the knowledge we have.

00:19:55 and assume we can plug some holes in the weak spot and see what kind of an entity we could

00:19:59 come out with. And this entity may be the ship you crawl into. I'm not going to say what you

00:20:05 do with it. It may be a thing that you find is sufficiently complex that it really carries

00:20:10 your intent. You're perfectly happy to turn this loose to represent you. And it goes,

00:20:16 and it goes in places you'll never get yourself. And it's a piece you may never get to. So

00:20:21 that is the crazy vision that lies to the side. Please don't be ill.

00:20:35 I use this illustration only to emphasize some of the peculiarities that I've found

00:20:43 that will cause you to try to think a little differently from trying to build an aluminum

00:20:51 spaceship and jump in it and then do something to make it disappear. Let's do it a different

00:20:55 way. Then maybe we can get back to the spaceship. We have a very persistent enigma in one aspect

00:21:04 of these charged clusters. Normally, when you generate them and run them across a guide,

00:21:10 that's how we operate with them usually. A guide is usually a dielectric structure

00:21:14 of some sort. A guide is an open thing. It could just be a crack. It could be just a

00:21:19 corner of things. They really love corners. It's kind of a mirror, if you will.

00:21:25 Do you see them visually with naked eyes? If they're down on the surface and near a

00:21:29 surface, you see them visually. It's the rest of the material. And if they're in gas,

00:21:34 they're quite visible, even if they're not on the surface. They're just a streamer.

00:21:38 So they propagate in vacuum? They propagate in vacuum only for a short distance

00:21:42 in their simplest form. If you encase them, if you build a sheet for them, then they propagate

00:21:50 in vacuum supremely. So they're an ultraconductor. They're better than a superconductor.

00:21:55 Meaning they explode in vacuum? They will explode in vacuum if you don't

00:21:59 dress them properly. If you just make them and launch them in what the bare state is,

00:22:04 as I call it, they will dishevel themselves in a time of about 10 to the minus 9 seconds.

00:22:10 They will travel distances only of a few millimeters.

00:22:14 And so that is an unstable state. But it's a simple and usual first thing that happens to them.

00:22:23 Now, the peculiarity is they travel, no matter where they are, in gas or vacuum or

00:22:29 on a surface, which is their favorite place, they will undergo a transition

00:22:35 where they become black. So we call them black EVs. EV is a word that we use often. So we

00:22:41 need something very simple. EV stands for?

00:22:45 Electrum Validum, these days, which is a Latin acronym for strong electron.

00:22:50 In the old days, it was electromagnetic vortex. But I have no proof of that, so they became EVs

00:22:56 of another sort. Now, the thing that a black EV

00:23:04 shows is that when we watch it with an electron camera, now that's a pinhole camera that can see

00:23:11 the emitted electrons that come off as they travel. And these are photos that you can look at

00:23:16 and help yourself later on understand what I'm talking about. But they leave a very distinct,

00:23:21 very fine line. The line is usually a width of about 20 micrometers because we choose to work

00:23:29 with a structure that is 20 micrometers in diameter because they're easy. We can work with

00:23:34 five micrometer structures. They're more or less quantized into these different levels.

00:23:39 And the most prominent structure is a one micrometer structure.

00:23:44 Those are too small to work with easily, so we usually scale up to about 20 micrometers.

00:23:50 And then those show a visible trail, both optically and in terms of electrons emitted.

00:23:57 Now, this camera is something we'll have to go into a little later, but I'd like to skip over it

00:24:00 for now. The camera allows you to follow any motion that they have.

00:24:05 This camera is a device you construct?

00:24:07 It's just a standard pinhole camera in a vacuum. We put various energy analyzers in it and a screen

00:24:15 that's essentially in the form of a channel plate multiplier, you know, one of these little

00:24:20 painted images. So you see a light image of wherever they go.

00:24:26 They also used a thing like Plasma Diagnostics and stuff to get similar devices.

00:24:30 It's not a street camera, but we do sweep it, so they're kind of a very, very high-bandwidth

00:24:34 street camera. We can work the thing up into a picosecond domain if we want to.

00:24:41 So we've had to devise a lot of instrumentation. This instrumentation allows us to work in the

00:24:46 picosecond domain for time measurements and generate high-amplitude picosecond pulses

00:24:53 at the same time. So we are in jeopardy here because, you know, if you make your own equipment

00:25:01 and it's not carrying a Hewlett-Packard or a tectronic number, then people will suspect

00:25:06 your apparatus. Well, that's a problem if they've got it, but it's not a problem for

00:25:11 me because it gets me along very well still. So we have—

00:25:14 Now you're saying that the—well, let's go—I think I was in my brawl, right?

00:25:21 They have discrete sizes?

00:25:25 I can't guarantee they're discrete. I have seen that there is a strong tendency toward

00:25:30 discreteness, but I've also found errant sizes, but I don't think they're stable for very long.

00:25:37 So they have like a size spectrum with peaks in it?

00:25:39 Yeah, they have a potential minimum.

00:25:41 That's better.

00:25:41 There's a famous Poincare calculation.

00:25:45 There's a very powerful peak at one micrometer. There's another at five. There's a little at

00:25:51 ten. Then at twenty, there's a huge behavior.

00:25:55 I see. So you see peaks.

00:25:58 We see peaks as measured by diameter of strike marks on a witness plate. So you see what did

00:26:06 exist. You don't see it as it exists, but the strike mark we've found is a very dependable

00:26:12 representation of the size. So here we have something that will disappear on us, and when

00:26:22 I say disappear, we have a lot of excess gain in these devices we use. So we can turn up

00:26:27 the brightness or turn up the gain, you know, six orders of magnitude.

00:26:31 You mean the cameras?

00:26:32 The cameras have that gain in it, whereas we have, say, unity gain set for the white

00:26:39 mode as they run. When it turns black, and this is, let's call it just a laminar flow

00:26:45 regime. We don't know what it is. It suddenly turns black on us. It will stay black until

00:26:50 we excite it. We can re-excite it by certain techniques of short pulses, and it'll turn

00:26:55 back bright again. It loves to go back black again.

00:26:59 But nevertheless, for a while, this thing disappears. We can't see what it's doing.

00:27:04 We just know that because it was white here, it becomes white over here. It did exist between

00:27:09 these two points.

00:27:09 And even if you turn up the gain, you don't see the black trail?

00:27:12 We have raised the gain, like, to the limits of our ability to look where we can see single

00:27:16 particles, and, you know, six, seven orders of magnitude, and we don't see single particles.

00:27:21 It's kind of analogous to, like, in bubble chambers where neutral particles don't leave

00:27:26 tracks and things like that.

00:27:27 Well, this darn thing will fly through gas. It won't ionize the gas. It's very, very

00:27:34 energetic, because if you capture it in flight, it explodes like the devil, and all these

00:27:39 tracks are things that we have, you know, published for a long time now in a particular

00:27:43 book.

00:27:43 It explodes with X-rays and hot electrons and stuff like this?

00:27:46 Yeah, tremendous plasma.

00:27:47 Even gamma rays.

00:27:50 Gammas can be arranged if you make them do a—if you take a dual EV. That's something

00:27:56 I'll show you some other pictures of.

00:27:57 But a pair of these things can get locked together, and they travel side by side through

00:28:03 almost anything.

00:28:03 They'll bore through silicon carbide, going side by side.

00:28:07 And then if you arrange to the right kind of collision technique, when these two fellows

00:28:12 collide, they're—I call them shockwave, for lack of a better term—produces a gamma

00:28:17 burst.

00:28:18 Very short, very intense.

00:28:21 But—and at times, direct it, which is another mystery.

00:28:25 I don't want to get into that too much.

00:28:26 But how in the hell can a bunch of atoms direct gammas?

00:28:30 I don't know that.

00:28:31 But the Russians, they reported on it, too.

00:28:33 The papers of Karabakh came out years ago.

00:28:36 Yeah, the people of Ukraine doing that, no?

00:28:41 Yeah, these were Karabakh Kucherov and so forth that do the earliest sort of fusion

00:28:47 where they get—

00:28:48 I've been shown that thing in Kiev.

00:28:51 And many, many amateur experimenters report gamma output.

00:28:57 All it is is these clusters doing a destructive process.

00:29:01 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:01 When you say amateur experimenters, do you mean it's a community of amateur experimenters

00:29:06 working on charge cluster research or working on other things that you believe they're

00:29:09 seeing?

00:29:10 Tests will like people.

00:29:12 Once in a while, somebody comes out and says, well, I got some big counts out of this thing,

00:29:16 and it came through an inch and a half of brass.

00:29:19 He's not—

00:29:19 Well, my tests look like that.

00:29:21 He's not wrong.

00:29:22 There are conditions that you can set up that will produce those effects.

00:29:26 But very much like, you know, in the early days of crystal sets with batteries.

00:29:33 That was the precursor to transistors.

00:29:35 People did get gain out of some of those early crystal sets with batteries installed in them.

00:29:39 You know, they had a little whisker stuck on it.

00:29:41 Things were happening.

00:29:42 And there must have been a thousand of those published in a popular science magazine before

00:29:46 transistors were discovered, finally.

00:29:48 It's not unusual.

00:29:50 So much for the Corso theory.

00:29:51 No, it's not in the middle, that's a—

00:29:57 Well, the idea that it came ex nihilo.

00:30:00 No, he never said that.

00:30:01 He said, you know, the hints that spent, and so on and so forth.

00:30:05 He never said ex nihilo.

00:30:06 Okay.

00:30:08 Now, I'm going to leave the black state shortly here, but I just want to put out a couple

00:30:14 words.

00:30:15 One, I don't know what's going on.

00:30:17 Of course, I've looked at all the possibilities that can fit within the limited budget I have,

00:30:24 because I have no application for these things, you know.

00:30:26 I think it goes away.

00:30:27 It's not worth much.

00:30:30 But if it goes away and then rematerializes inside of a closed box, you have a use.

00:30:35 I don't.

00:30:37 Now I may have a use.

00:30:39 All right.

00:30:39 This thing has no measurable properties at this point in my life.

00:30:44 It disappears.

00:30:46 It could be that it went to just a beam.

00:30:49 Oh, you can't measure a beam anyway.

00:30:51 Beams don't radiate sideways.

00:30:53 However, I put enough effort in to know it did not go into a beam.

00:30:56 I've been at the end of these things, and I've done a lot of work trying to figure out

00:30:59 what did happen.

00:31:01 So that whatever it is, it might have been coming straight on.

00:31:04 I do a lot of work with stuff coming straight at me.

00:31:07 There's none of that in there.

00:31:08 It is not a beam that's been formed.

00:31:09 And yet you can re-excite it.

00:31:11 I can re-excite it.

00:31:12 Presumably, the re-exciting is a completely different process than the initiation to begin

00:31:17 with.

00:31:18 To be real dumb about it, I would say the initiation is a quiescent state.

00:31:24 The EEV is in a highly turbulent state, in a white mode, perhaps.

00:31:29 To create a white EEV, to create a white one is a different process than to excite a black

00:31:35 one to be a white one again.

00:31:37 Yes.

00:31:37 OK.

00:31:38 Just checking.

00:31:39 And I can do the conversion several times in the picture that I have that you can see.

00:31:44 Can you get it clear?

00:31:45 What are you doing to pass from white to black?

00:31:49 What do I do to do that transition?

00:31:51 Yeah.

00:31:52 A very abrupt change in electric field does it.

00:31:57 Like if I am passing by an electrode that I happen to pulse with another EEV, that gives

00:32:04 you an extremely sharp charged pulse.

00:32:06 Then it'll light this thing up as it passes by, but then it dies right out as it goes

00:32:11 on by.

00:32:12 So you can see it in this passage, but it's not staying on.

00:32:15 Now, if I want to be spooky, and I'm here to be spooky, what I'm going to do is say,

00:32:20 why this thing disappeared?

00:32:22 Has it suddenly got to going so fast in this state, in this transition?

00:32:28 But I just can't detect it, nor can I detect the interaction with other material.

00:32:31 It doesn't ionize any more than if it were a gamma particle.

00:32:35 Of course, I don't know that.

00:32:37 I'm just saying, well, that's one thing.

00:32:39 It may be that it just simply got to going fast, because I don't have any measurements

00:32:44 to prove it didn't.

00:32:44 But it did.

00:32:45 One final question again.

00:32:48 Do the black ones annihilate with these fireworks, or just the white ones?

00:32:54 Well, in the first place, I'll show you some pictures at some point in time where you can

00:32:58 see a white one, and then you see it going black as it approaches the target.

00:33:04 The thing can't quite find the target.

00:33:06 It'll circle it, and it goes almost to a gray state, which is a rare thing.

00:33:11 I've never caught many of those on the camera as I did on this one.

00:33:14 And then it blew up as it hit the thing.

00:33:16 So it circled in a gray state.

00:33:18 So there was something about the excitation of seeing that landing site coming.

00:33:22 That was an anode that was going to strike it.

00:33:24 It was going to blow up, but it hadn't blown up.

00:33:27 But it did begin to recognize it and say, uh-oh, I've got to do something.

00:33:32 So it was the proximity to the anode that started it exciting, and then it went into

00:33:36 its destructive path.

00:33:37 But remember, none of this is holy.

00:33:39 This is all purely conjectural.

00:33:41 Right.

00:33:44 Now, when we create these things, we create them in this particular method I'm talking

00:33:50 about, by an explosive emission process.

00:33:53 Explosive what?

00:33:54 Explosive emission process.

00:33:56 This is a process that's been defined very carefully by Meschetz and his group in Russia.

00:34:02 They call them ektons.

00:34:04 They have seen these clustering effects.

00:34:07 They haven't used them and worked with them as I have.

00:34:09 But nevertheless, the ekton is in their world, and it's just the same thing that I work with.

00:34:16 Now, we know how many charges go into this formation process.

00:34:21 And we know what happens when we catch them.

00:34:23 We know how many charges come out there.

00:34:24 We simply use parametric techniques, no trick to it.

00:34:28 We can observe as they travel how many charges are lost, because we have instrumentation

00:34:34 on that.

00:34:36 It all balances out.

00:34:37 We know exactly who went where.

00:34:39 But even though we know the size of this beast that's traveling, and we know how many charges

00:34:46 are supposed to be in it, we can't apply classical calculations using diameters.

00:34:55 And all else we know.

00:34:57 And come up with the proper surface field strength.

00:34:59 It's a closed current.

00:35:03 It's a cluster.

00:35:04 It's in a ball form.

00:35:06 Yeah, all right.

00:35:07 But that can be an appearance.

00:35:09 It could be in ten rotations.

00:35:12 It's gone to my instruments.

00:35:14 It looks like kilovolts only, two kilovolts appearance to the outside.

00:35:19 The way it interacts with other electrons, other charged electrodes, and the way it emits

00:35:25 So you see two kilovolts effective surface potential?

00:35:30 No, two kilovolts effective surface potential.

00:35:33 But we have calculations, you know.

00:35:35 If you're going to trust some of the things of ten megavolts or more, it would be true.

00:35:39 Yeah, I agree.

00:35:41 So you see by the charge balance equations on the creation process and destruction process

00:35:47 and emission processes, you have about ten to the tenth charges in one of these things?

00:35:51 Ten to the eleventh.

00:35:52 Ten to the eleventh charges.

00:35:54 And then, but by the measurement of the field that one of these things induces, it looks

00:36:00 far less.

00:36:01 Yeah.

00:36:01 Okay.

00:36:03 Then we get the measurements on charge to mass ratio, which are quite easy by time of

00:36:11 flight.

00:36:12 It's not a highly accurate method, but you know, you can always see if I apply so many

00:36:17 kilovolts to this system, and this is over years of doing these kinds of things, it always

00:36:22 comes out there's a certain velocity that makes it look just like an electron.

00:36:27 So they appear to have the charge to mass ratio of an electron.

00:36:31 But we've already lost express charge.

00:36:35 Now, this would imply we've lost express mass in order to retain this charge to mass

00:36:41 ratio.

00:36:42 Well, if you have a constant in electrons, it's going to have the charge to mass ratio

00:36:45 of a single electron, and it cancels out.

00:36:48 But remember that...

00:36:49 He's not saying charge to mass ratio, he's saying mass, right?

00:36:53 I'm saying that if we have temporarily postponed the charge conservation law, which seems to

00:37:01 be happening here, that we have also temporarily postponed the mass conservation law.

00:37:06 Now...

00:37:07 Why are you postponing the charge conservation law?

00:37:11 We have to maintain the charge to mass ratio.

00:37:14 Remember, this is just calculation and stuff that I shouldn't be even talking about.

00:37:17 But we have a charge to mass ratio of an electron.

00:37:23 But that makes sense.

00:37:24 Yeah, it's built through the electrons.

00:37:25 Yeah, so that's what that's...

00:37:26 Not necessarily.

00:37:28 We aren't sure of that now, because there's so many other things happening.

00:37:31 But let's say, where did our charge go, first of all?

00:37:35 Why can't we see this express charge of megavolts?

00:37:42 Something happened.

00:37:43 We have an apparently smaller number in there.

00:37:48 If you put the condensers, they don't change their paths?

00:37:55 They don't react to a difference of potential?

00:37:59 They do.

00:38:00 They do.

00:38:00 They do act like an electron.

00:38:02 What?

00:38:03 They do act like an electron, in that respect.

00:38:06 But they don't have the calculated charge one would expect for that many charges.

00:38:13 And we do know the diameter.

00:38:14 So what he's saying...

00:38:15 Let me try to paraphrase what you're saying.

00:38:16 Please.

00:38:17 Okay, because I want to know if I want to understand, if I understand this and if everybody

00:38:21 else understands it.

00:38:23 You make this cluster, and as far as you can tell, about 10 to the 11th charges go into

00:38:33 the cluster.

00:38:35 And that, likewise, balances out that when the cluster dissipates, that's about how many

00:38:41 charges come out.

00:38:44 However, when you have this cluster in flight, and you are deflecting it with electric fields

00:38:51 and looking at what its charge should be for its deflections, for instance, then you see

00:38:57 a much smaller, like it should be 2,000 electron charge, not 10 to the 10th of an electron

00:39:02 volt.

00:39:04 Because if the deflection goes as E over N...

00:39:06 No, but what I'm just thinking is that you have internal a cluster of electrons, all

00:39:12 right?

00:39:12 You need a new force to explain that.

00:39:14 That's why you can think of mills and other people.

00:39:18 And then, so there are new type of electromagnetic forces which damp down the repulsion between

00:39:26 the electrons, right?

00:39:28 And then, if there are internal motions, like in a vortex, then you don't expect the same

00:39:36 reaction.

00:39:37 Because it's every electron inside the cluster has a different internal motion.

00:39:46 True.

00:39:46 Now, can you tell me what electron motion's inside?

00:39:50 If you put motion of the electrons inside your cluster, then you have a whole new electrodynamic

00:40:21 effect coming in, which must include mass effects, which include change in mass.

00:40:27 That's exactly what we were discussing yesterday.

00:40:32 Well, it's the same thing in the sense that happens in your photon model.

00:40:36 Yeah, all right, but I've never been inside a photon.

00:40:41 Well, here you eventually can go in there. I mean, it has a size and so on.

00:40:50 We would perhaps even think of experiments to detect the internal motion of the electrons inside the cluster.

00:40:58 Which is a science experiment, okay, but we do have applications we want to take care of.

00:41:03 Oh, that's another. You haven't talked to me yet about applications.

00:41:07 Here comes the thing that I'm just sort of sticking in. It's not what we were talking about, about building this entity.

00:41:13 All right.

00:41:14 We're going to now go back to propulsion, because the entity needs to know a little bit.

00:41:18 But when we shoot through solid materials with these charged clusters, we entrain the solid material and fluidize it.

00:41:27 That was the substance of that last paper.

00:41:30 The fluidization process I've just tagged.

00:41:34 What do you call that? Fluidization?

00:41:36 Fluidization. We just make it fluid.

00:41:39 You put the charged cluster into the solid. The solid becomes fluid in the path.

00:41:44 We impart an enormous amount of the charged cluster's momentum to this.

00:41:50 I wouldn't even say momentum. It's velocity.

00:41:53 Whatever velocities we go in with, we come out with the fluidized material, such as silicon carbide, which has a high mass compared to the electrons.

00:42:04 You're destroying the crystal structure.

00:42:10 We fluidize it down to the point that it flows on a surface as if it was electric in itself.

00:42:16 It flows out to atomically thin edges.

00:42:18 Of course, the bonds within crystals are electromagnetic bonds.

00:42:29 Basically, we're changing the whole electromagnetic behavior inside the crystal.

00:42:37 That's why you turn it into a fluid.

00:42:39 Then we impart momentum to it.

00:42:42 What do you mean, impart momentum?

00:42:45 We give it velocity. The fluid is given a huge velocity.

00:42:48 The velocity is up to several hundred electron volts.

00:42:52 You have a backlash.

00:42:54 Let's call it a forward lash, first of all.

00:42:57 We just simply shoot through the charged clusters, traverse through the solid material, and come out the far side.

00:43:05 The material is yanked along with it.

00:43:07 Like a jet material?

00:43:09 It's a very narrow angle, very, very high velocity jet material.

00:43:14 It sounds like a weapon.

00:43:17 It's a thrust. I call them microthrusters.

00:43:22 It's an easy achievement in the application.

00:43:26 Here's the thing you have to keep your eye on.

00:43:29 The energy balance just doesn't look good at all.

00:43:31 I only put 20 microjoules in to form these things and to shoot them.

00:43:36 We get high velocity, high-powered material coming out from the back side.

00:43:40 Not to mention the amount of energy that would classically be required to break the bonds and melt the crystal.

00:43:48 Classically is the key word here.

00:43:50 I've called it a disruption process.

00:43:53 It is not thermal because the material that comes out—this is something you really have to see yourself.

00:43:59 That's why I made it a simple experiment.

00:44:01 The material that comes out is not hot.

00:44:04 Even though it's silicon carbide, it's highly fluidized.

00:44:08 It runs on a surface that you can put wax on it.

00:44:11 It won't touch the wax.

00:44:12 It will not raise the temperature at all of anything that it strikes.

00:44:17 It's a huge quantity of material.

00:44:19 It's not as if there were only a few atoms.

00:44:21 We're talking about a slug that's 20 micrometers by 100 micrometers.

00:44:25 When it strikes something, it dents it.

00:44:27 It digs in hard, but it won't heat.

00:44:31 A most peculiar property on top of a most peculiar property.

00:44:37 Namely, the low mass is implied here because the velocities are very high.

00:44:42 If that's the case, then that stuff that these charge clusters are made of

00:44:49 is able to lower the mass of real material, of ordinary stuff like silicon carbide.

00:44:55 Why do you say lower the mass goes up?

00:44:58 I only say the velocity is very high.

00:45:00 It's anomalously high and by orders of magnitude.

00:45:04 The reason you're saying lower the mass is primarily because of the energy balance issue.

00:45:10 Because what you're saying is that it's very hard to understand

00:45:14 how what is essentially a low energy charge cluster

00:45:18 can cause a high energy jet of atoms to come shooting out the other side of the sample.

00:45:24 Well, the only possible explanation is that you have internal motions within the crystal.

00:45:32 That are inducing internal motions within the crystal

00:45:36 that are causing some kind of chain reaction almost, if you will.

00:45:40 Well, now you're getting close to my energy production process.

00:45:43 We're going to have to stop here.

00:45:45 No, but I can see that.

00:45:47 It's not difficult to imagine, eh?

00:45:49 All right.

00:45:51 My impression is that particles are involved in vortex motion with...

00:46:01 Maybe, and bounded and...

00:46:04 This can explain a reduction of mass.

00:46:09 I have to just hang some of these things on the wall and say,

00:46:13 Well, there it is.

00:46:15 I don't know what it is, but there it is.

00:46:17 So this effect of getting high velocities induced in ordinary material

00:46:22 is a propulsion effect for the ordinary sort.

00:46:27 But I'm only really trying to say,

00:46:30 I think the mass reduction term ought to be looked at very carefully.

00:46:33 I think that there is a reduction of mass here that I don't understand at all.

00:46:37 You mean a temporary reduction of mass of, say, the silicon carbide

00:46:40 that allows it to be accelerated at such high velocities?

00:46:43 Yes.

00:46:44 And then, I guess...

00:46:45 And then, watch out.

00:46:46 Now we're getting into the shrink-off type radiation or something

00:46:49 because we're going to have to go through a transition back to normal mass.

00:46:53 We do get an interesting, very short, very intense pulse of light

00:46:58 at the end of one of these operations.

00:47:02 It's formed in a very unique place in space.

00:47:05 It's formed in a very, very small size.

00:47:08 Now those are shown in that same paper.

00:47:11 Just optical light, not x-rays or anything super high energy?

00:47:14 I can move the spectrum up into the x-ray range easily,

00:47:17 but in order to work with the kind of stuff that I could get in a kit

00:47:21 where I wanted those people to work,

00:47:24 it's limited to the optical range

00:47:26 because they're going to use standard film,

00:47:28 they're going to use standard filters like copper and so forth,

00:47:32 copper screens to see the diameters of these little point sources.

00:47:36 So by point-projection microscopy,

00:47:38 you can figure out what the source size of that light is.

00:47:41 And you can see the spectrum a little bit

00:47:44 by how it is absorbed in these different screens that you put in

00:47:49 that are part of the point-projection mode.

00:47:52 But let me get back to this side thing

00:47:57 so that we can keep on the main track.

00:47:59 This disruption process that I'm talking about

00:48:04 has one other very clear illustration

00:48:08 of being different from thermal process.

00:48:12 Yeah, because it's one-dimensional.

00:48:16 It does. It could just be...

00:48:20 Now what is the relation of the increase of velocity

00:48:28 with respect to the incoming love-ball lightning?

00:48:34 I put in, say, one and a half kilovolts.

00:48:37 I can measure average energies on the particles coming out of around 300 volts.

00:48:42 So there's a relationship that's rough there.

00:48:45 What are your two figures there?

00:48:48 About one and a half thousand volts and about 300 volts.

00:48:52 Now, in order to measure the 300 volts,

00:48:55 you have to change the apparatus to move it into vacuum.

00:48:58 And I don't expect anybody in the kitchen to have that kind of apparatus.

00:49:01 And you measure those as ions.

00:49:03 Again, these numbers are published in that same paper.

00:49:06 And I said, if you go into vacuum and make these measurements in a normal scale,

00:49:11 you'll be 5 times 10 to the minus 9 seconds in so many inches

00:49:16 is what you'll get for your numbers.

00:49:18 It comes out very energetic.

00:49:22 In air and at atmospheric pressure in air,

00:49:27 you see shock cones on these little fellows occasionally.

00:49:31 The shock cones are only spaced in the order of three thousandths of an inch.

00:49:35 And this doesn't work in vacuum?

00:49:39 Well, that works fine in the vacuum.

00:49:41 Oh, I know. I'm right.

00:49:43 Oh, yeah. It makes instrumentation much easier for me

00:49:46 because I like to work in the vacuum.

00:49:48 Other people that don't want to leave their kitchen table

00:49:52 have to use a little different source.

00:49:55 So I optimize all the sources for one kitchen table.

00:50:00 But in the secondary proof that this is not a thermal process,

00:50:07 I have taken the twin or the dual EV structure,

00:50:11 which you'll see again in that paper at least in one simple form.

00:50:15 These things are formed together.

00:50:17 They travel together.

00:50:19 They're destroyed together.

00:50:21 But when they travel through a material like silicon carbide again

00:50:25 or aluminum oxide or anything,

00:50:28 they leave a beautiful double borehole.

00:50:31 You can even see the cusp of where these two things come together.

00:50:35 Now, in a material...

00:50:36 It touches like two donuts, yes?

00:50:39 Two donuts or if they're donuts. I don't know what they are.

00:50:41 They're two spherical-like structures.

00:50:43 As they go through, they leave that little beautiful thin line,

00:50:48 which, of course, if you're using silicon carbide,

00:50:51 is 2,600 degrees centigrade thermal melting point

00:50:54 on each side of that line.

00:50:56 And the material is black and absorbent as it could possibly be.

00:51:01 And it's only put together with wax.

00:51:04 I purposely put little grains of silicon carbide into this structure

00:51:09 with a paraffin-based wax.

00:51:11 That just has no melting point requirement.

00:51:13 And yet it's not touched.

00:51:15 You can look at this with...

00:51:16 So each grain after grain is penetrated by this double barrel.

00:51:19 Grains are cut in half.

00:51:21 And yet the wax isn't significantly...

00:51:23 The wax is not touched.

00:51:24 You need to track it to the metal.

00:51:26 What he's saying is it's not a heat process.

00:51:29 It's not a thermal process.

00:51:30 Oh, no, it's clearly not a heat process. I understand that.

00:51:32 But what I'm driving at is...

00:51:33 Now, here comes the rest of the argument.

00:51:36 This is intensely bright material.

00:51:39 This material is incandescent.

00:51:42 You see it when it comes out.

00:51:44 It rolls across these photographic films, leaving an optical track.

00:51:48 It's cold but luminescent in the sense that it's bright.

00:51:54 The stuff that was bored out of the holes.

00:51:56 Yeah.

00:51:57 If you let it splatter on a photographic film,

00:52:00 you can see it running out on these pictures, on that paper.

00:52:05 And yet it didn't have energy enough to touch that sidewall.

00:52:10 Now, what the word was not...

00:52:12 I did not use the word, the sheath.

00:52:14 Because the sheath...

00:52:15 What?

00:52:16 Sheath.

00:52:17 The sheath is the scabbard.

00:52:18 It's what you put your sword in.

00:52:19 It's the protector.

00:52:20 It's the container.

00:52:22 There is a sheath effectively formed here,

00:52:25 like Star Trek Enterprise never had before.

00:52:29 Inside, we've got all this hail breaking loose.

00:52:32 We've got huge pressure waves.

00:52:34 We've got all kinds of optical effects going on.

00:52:38 You've got breaking some of the strongest chemical bonds known.

00:52:42 As strong as I can find and get, yes.

00:52:45 And yet it won't touch something that's 100 angstroms away.

00:52:50 I'll tell you that number.

00:52:51 In the paper, it says 1,000 angstroms away.

00:52:53 So it gives a thermal gradient, if you can use the word thermal,

00:52:57 of about 26,000 degrees per micrometer.

00:53:00 Now, that's a very, very high apparent thermal gradient.

00:53:04 The fact is it's not thermal, so we don't have to use that word.

00:53:08 But what I'm driving at is the sheath is more...

00:53:11 Energy gradient.

00:53:12 An energy gradient of some sort.

00:53:14 Now, the sheath is more valuable to me, more interesting,

00:53:19 than all of the other phenomena put in here.

00:53:24 The sheath represents a barrier like I've never seen before.

00:53:29 It's part and parcel of all EV operations.

00:53:34 Things happen like crazy in one place.

00:53:37 Nothing's happening next to it at all.

00:53:39 I used to worry about electromagnetic impulses and all that

00:53:43 and how this would affect the next-door neighbor.

00:53:45 They don't see each other.

00:53:47 They're absolutely shielded in all bands of the spectrum I'm looking at.

00:53:51 You know, there are boundary phenomena like that.

00:53:55 For example, talk about beams.

00:53:58 Which?

00:53:59 Talk about beams.

00:54:00 Yeah, so it's like maybe plasma confinement effect.

00:54:03 A beams effect.

00:54:05 Sure, sure.

00:54:06 And that's where all the matter is condensed.

00:54:09 Well, this is just you.

00:54:12 Well, I believe you're just a bit, you're building a small technology.

00:54:18 Our electrons with motion, very strong motion.

00:54:22 Yeah, yeah.

00:54:23 So the motion that would be seen in that field.

00:54:26 The barrier just means that there is motion if it's not thermal.

00:54:33 Okay, well the barrier is not only to those things that are in motion,

00:54:37 but those things generated from the motion.

00:54:39 The photons must be either highly reflected internally or corralled to just the core of motion.

00:54:47 You see, it's like rotating barriers.

00:54:51 You just have to, the light is trapped inside.

00:54:54 That's why it's black light.

00:54:57 Now it makes a forward beam of light that's extremely intense.

00:55:01 The forward beam.

00:55:02 Oh, that.

00:55:03 Oh, it's very intense.

00:55:05 It's about 10 to the 18th.

00:55:07 So you can feel a hole in the material that way.

00:55:09 Absolutely.

00:55:10 That's one of your fallouts.

00:55:13 I sometimes wish it would fall somewhere else because it's sometimes trouble.

00:55:17 But the amount of.

00:55:19 Yeah, no doubt you can feel holes.

00:55:23 In metal, for example.

00:55:26 Well, metal is another subject.

00:55:27 Metal is a reflective element.

00:55:30 This is a flying puckamuck.

00:55:33 A microscopic flying puckamuck.

00:55:36 Yeah, right.

00:55:37 Microscopic.

00:55:38 Sweet.

00:55:39 There's no law of nature which tells you the size of it.

00:55:43 Yeah, you'll fly in no time.

00:55:46 Well, an electromagnetic pinch effect probably.

00:55:49 Plasma, I guess if you want to talk about a pure electron plasma, maybe.

00:55:54 That's fine.

00:55:55 That's just called.

00:55:57 Non-genetic.

00:55:59 Plasma is a medium.

00:56:01 But without any.

00:56:03 Although plasma, but you see plasma is a strange word because plasma generally defines, is thought to define a state of matter.

00:56:10 But like the other states of matter, such as, let's look at the terrestrial states like solids and liquids.

00:56:18 And then you look at, say, this.

00:56:21 This is not a solid.

00:56:22 This is not a liquid.

00:56:23 This is a much more highly organized situation that has solid-like aspects and liquid-like aspects.

00:56:30 And it may very well be that in the domain of electromagnetically and quantum mechanically self-excited pinched coherent structures.

00:56:40 You have to simply go beyond the simple idea of a plasma, even of a coherent structure within a plasma.

00:56:47 Because the level of organization might get quite high.

00:56:50 And the thermal and free field kinds of ideas that go into plasma physics might be as inappropriate as using simple solid state physics and liquid thermodynamics to describe what's going on in the human body.

00:57:09 I'd say it's inappropriate.

00:57:11 Every time I've tried to stick standard plasma physics rules in it.

00:57:15 If you have extended models of electrons, you have that spiral motion, and that's a moving tuckamak inside the electron, right?

00:57:28 Same thing.

00:57:30 Here you have organized collective tuckamak motion on a set of electrons.

00:57:39 What compensates charge?

00:57:42 It is not plasma.

00:57:43 It's configuration of charge like electron beam, high-density electron beam.

00:57:48 Spin-spin and spin-orbit coupling.

00:57:51 Yes, that's what I think is one of possible explanations.

00:57:55 There's only one.

00:57:57 It is an electromagnetic effect.

00:58:02 It is an electromagnetic effect.

00:58:04 I think I can even start a calculation on that.

00:58:09 But it's torsion, yes?

00:58:11 Yeah, well, certainly, yeah.

00:58:15 So you have torsion inside the electrons and collective torsion on the set of electrons.

00:58:23 Which is confined, which is...

00:58:26 Which is spin-spin.

00:58:29 And so you have a toroid, you have a toroid, and the lines of flow of the electrons just...

00:58:38 And you probably have an integer structure, because you must have an integer term.

00:58:45 That's the quantization of the size of Poincaré.

00:58:51 So what is... I understand correctly.

00:58:55 So, like, Poincaré model of electron does not fit to explain this phenomenon.

00:59:02 We have to go...

00:59:03 You have to take a set of electrons...

00:59:05 ...to probably explain the structure of electron.

00:59:07 And then we get something which is analog of plasma configuration in Takamak.

00:59:13 And you have overall spins and orbital motion in there.

00:59:18 Very interesting ideas on this.

00:59:22 You probably have, in a sense, if these objects are...

00:59:28 You probably have kind of a new set of quantum numbers for these objects.

00:59:32 The sizes, you mean?

00:59:33 Not only the sizes, but the various circulation intervals and things like that.

00:59:37 Oh, boundary conditions.

00:59:38 Yeah.

00:59:39 Right.

00:59:40 Like Bohr-Semmerfeld rules.

00:59:41 Exactly.

00:59:42 Yeah.

00:59:43 There is, on that same subject...

00:59:45 subject of a little different type. There's a certain organizational aspect to these things.

00:59:53 Self-organization, you mean?

00:59:55 Self-organization, to an extreme degree. That's the one thing I think that sets them aside

00:59:59 from everything else I've ever worked with. These things manufacture themselves. Not only

01:00:04 do they make themselves, but I can set up structures that cause them to combine into

01:00:10 very, very complex organic-like molecules.

01:00:14 Meaning you're combining such a little plastic and building something that crystals and so on?

01:00:21 Building something that's organized. I wouldn't say it's crystallized because it's highly

01:00:25 fluid. It can readapt itself. It still keeps its boundary condition.

01:00:30 But like what this is in a fluid?

01:00:33 More complex than any I've ever seen published. Now, I again have only one set of pictures

01:00:38 to show you on that if that time comes.

01:00:41 Well, let's see.

01:00:42 What you'll see is hundreds of these basic entities organized, holding onto each other,

01:00:48 and they have been through hell, and they still hold tightly. I've been able to develop

01:00:53 a slight hierarchy of binding energies. I know who is the most tightly bound and how

01:00:58 you can finally get into what you might call organic binding, which is a little weaker.

01:01:03 But still, it's a highly organized, highly balanced structure.

01:01:07 Yeah, but you see, in a fluid, vortices interact.

01:01:12 They do interact.

01:01:13 I think what he's saying is that in the literature, there are various people who've studied vortex-vortex

01:01:22 interaction, and they've established experimental and theoretical calculations, and there's

01:01:27 a certain size limitation to the interaction.

01:01:35 Well, because a vortex has to be stable.

01:01:38 You must compensate.

01:01:41 That is a bold model.

01:01:44 It is quantization of magnetic flux.

01:01:47 Yeah, I like it.

01:01:49 In a superfluid, the vortices can organize into very complex true patterns of a whole

01:01:56 You know when you see those kinds of things, although in a way it's cheating, perhaps,

01:02:00 in the convection cells. I mean, there, when you have heated layers, you can get vast arrays

01:02:06 of organized vortex motions.

01:02:08 All kinds of things.

01:02:09 Okay, well, I don't want to belabor that one, because I'm already way behind in time, but

01:02:15 I'm going to give you an example.

01:02:18 They're easy to manipulate, and they're very tough.

01:02:21 In fact, after you join a certain number, you begin to develop this protective sheath

01:02:28 around the entire ensemble.

01:02:30 Now, that is where a ball of lightning begins.

01:02:37 ...effects that were developed.

01:02:39 Or it will bore its way right out of the system.

01:02:43 I think it's very interesting to observe X-rays.

01:02:48 I see the directional...

01:02:52 I see the direction of the X-rays.

01:02:57 I see the direction of the X-rays.

01:03:02 I see the directional...

01:03:07 I don't worry too much about directional X-rays, because they are within the wavelength range

01:03:13 that I can get a conic structure.

01:03:15 Yeah, of course, and you need that.

01:03:16 It goes down in that structure.

01:03:17 And that structure evaporates. It's a thick fluid, of course.

01:03:19 All right, fine.

01:03:23 There are things coming along that come from the electronic aspects of these things

01:03:29 that I'll just wave my hand briefly about, and you can look in the literature elsewhere.

01:03:34 This is stuff I have not done myself.

01:03:36 But they're talking about spread-spectrum micropower radar techniques.

01:03:43 This work is being done at Lawrence Livermore.

01:03:45 It's being done by other companies.

01:03:47 And what they're finding is that they're able to work well below the noise floor

01:03:52 on information retrieval.

01:03:55 You can go out and, with this micropower radar thing,

01:03:59 which involved primarily a lot of interesting data processing,

01:04:04 they can get down to the signature of these micropower transmitters

01:04:10 and get radar returns out of stuff that you couldn't possibly pick up with classical radar.

01:04:16 So I'm saying watch for a set of sensors

01:04:20 that are going to come out of the complex electronic that these clusters can do.

01:04:24 These clusters really can work some fiercely complex systems for cheap

01:04:29 because of the self-organizing aspect of them.

01:04:32 Now, these super-wideband techniques, of course, are also sensors.

01:04:38 You have to really think about this entity that we're trying to construct here slowly

01:04:42 as something that can see, in quotes, all the way from tactical inputs, tactile inputs,

01:04:49 so low-frequency things, right up through the x-ray range.

01:04:55 An entity constructed with these electronic techniques is basically sees all.

01:05:01 You know what this reminds me of?

01:05:02 Austin, are you listening?

01:05:03 Yes.

01:05:04 This reminds me of the mines in Iain Banks that are constructed from fields.

01:05:10 Yes.

01:05:11 I can tell that's where you're headed.

01:05:12 You mean the science fiction thing?

01:05:13 Of course.

01:05:14 You think the Lensmen also are brilliant?

01:05:15 I don't know about the Lensmen,

01:05:16 but a brilliant writer named Iain Banks has basically the future being dominated by these AIs,

01:05:23 which are just configurations of fields of an unspecified type,

01:05:28 living on board huge spaceships, taking care of humans because they like to.

01:05:35 We've got to work on that part real quick.

01:05:39 Yeah, we get it.

01:05:40 If we create a thing that seems to me to be perfectly reasonable to do,

01:05:45 the real big problem real soon,

01:05:47 and that's just after it begins to organize itself at a rate greater than we can help,

01:05:52 this teenager is going to want to leave home,

01:05:55 and we're going to have real trouble talking it into staying.

01:05:57 One of the things I'd be interested in is, number one,

01:06:00 what kind of magnetic field properties around these things,

01:06:03 especially if there's internal motions of the charges like Professor Vigier said,

01:06:07 but also some way of trying to estimate the speed of light inside these things.

01:06:12 What's the index of refraction of light inside?

01:06:15 I don't know how to measure that.

01:06:16 You're about to say it for me.

01:06:18 I hope you come to that.

01:06:21 If mass is reduced, and I don't know that it is,

01:06:25 I'm just saying that the mass looks hard to account for by ordinary methods,

01:06:30 then I will say it's because you have immersed that mass in a new epsilon knot.

01:06:36 What makes the epsilon knot go in the direction of reducing mass and increasing C?

01:06:41 They say uncompensated charge density.

01:06:44 Meaning the ball of lightning there, they just move around in space.

01:06:50 They don't fall.

01:06:52 They have a very low density, apparently.

01:06:55 I don't know.

01:06:58 They have been said to work right through a window.

01:07:04 I have no trouble with this kind of structure that I'm talking about doing that.

01:07:10 I just say, well, it just reconstituted itself.

01:07:13 It didn't actually pass through.

01:07:15 Let me tell you what my theory is.

01:07:17 All right.

01:07:21 Self-organization will increase if the speed of light in the material is going lower than higher.

01:07:27 Higher seems to be the direction you go to make the mass thing go lower.

01:07:30 I think you're probably making an error about that.

01:07:35 I predict that if the speed of light, just for the record,

01:07:40 the speed of light inside these things is measured, it's going to be slow, slower than that.

01:07:45 Okay.

01:07:48 Well, I'm not going to push on any of these.

01:07:51 I'm just saying that there's a lot of strange stuff happening.

01:07:55 It's not problematic.

01:07:58 All this stuff happens.

01:07:59 It's something you can do time and again.

01:08:01 It's just a question of utility.

01:08:04 It's a question of how complex a thing you want to put together.

01:08:08 I've never had the opportunity to get into some of these things that are mentioned here.

01:08:18 My question about propulsion.

01:08:20 You mentioned that energy anomalous phenomena and propulsion are related.

01:08:26 But how are you going to apply it to propulsion of macroscopic objects, say some vehicle?

01:08:32 I have to make large EVs.

01:08:35 That's the program that I would propose to this group.

01:08:38 Yeah, but what is the mechanism?

01:08:40 No, you're saying you can build big things like that.

01:08:43 Claiming I know ways, I'm going to try.

01:08:46 There's no reason why it shouldn't work.

01:08:49 Well, I hope not.

01:08:51 I need it.

01:08:52 At least it will self-assemble.

01:08:53 Can't it self-assemble into big things?

01:08:55 Yeah, but you have to do the stage.

01:08:57 You have to build the stage to get the thing to go.

01:08:59 My question is, you probably can accelerate this ball, so this cluster.

01:09:06 But it's not useful for propulsion.

01:09:09 You should accelerate some macroscopic object.

01:09:13 Sure.

01:09:14 How you will utilize this?

01:09:16 So, again, like rocket, like reaction force?

01:09:23 I'm going to have to fall over into your camp and ask you a question here.

01:09:27 You mentioned that you're related to…

01:09:30 All I know about propulsion usually means you're pushing against some medium somehow.

01:09:36 Now, all I can see…

01:09:38 So it's reaction force against…

01:09:40 In this case, all I see is that the optics are very powerful.

01:09:44 The optics are in the direction that the thrust seems to be.

01:09:47 If I destroy the front end of one of my containers, which is being pushed against, I have to say.

01:09:52 I don't know what.

01:09:53 So you measure reaction force.

01:09:54 Then I see the light is coming out the back.

01:09:56 If I put in reflectors and contain in both directions, there's no destruction.

01:10:01 If I take off one reflector, then I get a lot of light output, and the same begins to heat my container.

01:10:09 So it's like impulse from a reaction of light.

01:10:12 It's like a directional beam of light.

01:10:16 Electromagnetic thrust.

01:10:18 Yes, it is.

01:10:20 We can use a powerful laser to…

01:10:25 So, in that respect, totally at your mercy, you can't leave.

01:10:29 It's not new.

01:10:31 I have no idea.

01:10:33 Staying in, like, new principles, like propulsion.

01:10:37 Is this what I want to say about the speed of light?

01:10:39 The speed of light?

01:10:41 No, no.

01:10:42 I'm saying inside the thing.

01:10:43 I have a theory of this.

01:10:45 I have an equation.

01:10:46 My equation in this situation says if it's self-organizing strongly,

01:10:51 then the speed of light inside the thing has to be low, lower than vacuum.

01:10:55 Okay.

01:10:56 Well, this is, I mean, it's been noted.

01:10:59 Now it's been noted again.

01:11:00 And we will get to a point where it can be measured.

01:11:06 Now, let me tell you that there's one area that I did some work in years ago.

01:11:12 I was totally mystified by everything I did.

01:11:14 I found no good answers anywhere,

01:11:17 and I was working with a variety of very good people that were specialists in the field.

01:11:22 That's the effect of potentials.

01:11:25 We worked with vector and scalar potentials.

01:11:29 I worked with you, Karen, and I worked with Harold Putoff.

01:11:33 We could not…

01:11:34 You worked with Aharonoff?

01:11:35 Yes.

01:11:36 Rick Aharonoff?

01:11:37 Extensively.

01:11:38 Oh, I don't want to know.

01:11:39 We even rented a house over here on Clay Street.

01:11:40 Aharonoff from Bowman Aharonoff?

01:11:42 Yes.

01:11:43 Really?

01:11:44 Yes.

01:11:45 Don't you still smoke on me?

01:11:48 Okay, let's see the story.

01:11:51 The work was aimed at validating some of the theories.

01:11:56 We never got to that.

01:11:57 What we did was build a lot of apparatus that I put together intuitively,

01:12:02 generated so many new questions that Yakir couldn't answer,

01:12:09 Hal couldn't answer what was going on.

01:12:12 We would cancel fields over large areas, ordinary EB fields,

01:12:17 and yet we would get signals through a massive shielding system

01:12:22 into a low-energy electron beam metapherometer that we were using as a detector.

01:12:27 Now, sure, maybe something was wrong experimentally,

01:12:29 but we went over and over and over those things for months.

01:12:34 Could not get out of the trouble we got in.

01:12:37 So what I learned out of that work was it's not a field for me.

01:12:41 I never produced anything productive there, but I did manage.

01:12:46 I did manage to amaze myself and then notice later on,

01:12:50 all of these structures I'm working with, if they were vortical-like really,

01:12:55 these charged clusters are vortical in nature,

01:12:58 and they would be supremely good generators of spectra potentials

01:13:04 without contamination from EB fields.

01:13:08 Now, if that's the case, and if there's also a potential detector in there some way,

01:13:14 then you may be able to work with a whole new realm of fields

01:13:17 that we don't sense easily here at all, which we did somehow,

01:13:22 but I was just constantly mystified by the results,

01:13:26 and we gave it up because it couldn't make the end step.

01:13:33 So, do you know about these configurations which have vector potential and no EB fields?

01:13:40 I understand some of the ideas about that, like the classic outside of an infinite solenoid,

01:13:47 you know, the standard, a higher-order foam example.

01:13:50 And I understand, obviously, that there should be generalizations of that,

01:13:54 and it might indeed have these toroidal or vortex potentials.

01:13:58 You mean no EB field anywhere?

01:14:00 No EB, no EB, no EB.

01:14:03 The point is, let's say, if I may try to paraphrase,

01:14:08 you make some sort of coherent, stable cluster in EB nature,

01:14:18 there might be extremely strong E and B fields associated with the cluster itself,

01:14:23 but there might also be extremely huge A potential outside, even though there's no field.

01:14:30 So you could use those little entities and interact them to find out about,

01:14:35 you know, answer questions about the reality of electromagnetic potentials,

01:14:42 and to create effects based on electromagnetic potentials

01:14:46 along the lines of the things Bearden talks about and all this kind of stuff.

01:14:50 The way in which Bearden started off in the work that we were on, he got onto it somehow.

01:14:54 And one day there were three bees called Bearden, Blackburn,

01:14:57 he was with the CIA at the time and some other bee I've long since forgotten.

01:15:01 But we don't know yet how in the hell three guys caught onto our work.

01:15:04 Oh, so you don't know Bearden yourself?

01:15:06 I know Bearden, yeah.

01:15:08 And I hope I don't do that to you today.

01:15:11 But the thing I'd like to leave with you, just a final thought on the potential effects,

01:15:18 is that if you do have one of these structures of charge,

01:15:23 and if it has a radial oscillation to it, that is a perfect A generator, basically.

01:15:30 You mean an intrinsic generation of pulsing of the major radius?

01:15:33 Right. And that is one of the easiest, most natural things.

01:15:37 Oh, that's good.

01:15:39 Have you seen any pulses?

01:15:41 Seen any what?

01:15:42 Pulses like that.

01:15:44 I couldn't detect them with what I've been doing.

01:15:46 They pulsate, I'm sure of that, because I know they go through a moment of settling down.

01:15:51 And there's a little momentary variation.

01:15:54 But I have no detection of that A signal.

01:15:58 It would be much like charges on a balloon in which you're oscillating the surface.

01:16:03 All J's basically cancel as far as radiation goes.

01:16:07 And so it's one of these radiationless longitudinal field generators, maybe.

01:16:13 So, just hand-waving.

01:16:15 No, that's interesting. That's a good idea.

01:16:18 Now, let me name some missing areas before we put together our entity.

01:16:22 And that's probably going to be about all we have time for before we're able to go on.

01:16:28 But the missing part, one, is electronic self-construction.

01:16:33 I've carried it out to a small degree.

01:16:36 And you can see some of the earlier work on that in one of the little booklets I brought with me.

01:16:41 And the earlier work was done with an entirely different set of components.

01:16:48 But I was on the right track.

01:16:50 When this charge cluster thing showed up, it was a blessing like I've never hoped to see in my life.

01:16:55 These things are the most organizable, electronically self-constructible things that I've ever seen.

01:17:01 So, electronic construction methods are essential.

01:17:06 They're really complex entities for both structural properties and for electrical properties.

01:17:12 I'm not understanding what you're saying.

01:17:14 What do you mean by electronic construction methods?

01:17:16 Are you saying that we do not have electronic construction methods when we need them?

01:17:21 Or are you saying that you have them and everybody else needs them?

01:17:24 Or are you saying that there's no electronic construction techniques available now?

01:17:31 Ideally, we'd want to make, say, some kind of solid-state device

01:17:37 which would produce 500 of these clusters organized in a certain pattern every time you pulse it or something like that.

01:17:44 You could call it that.

01:17:45 Let's make the template solid because that's the world we live in.

01:17:49 The things that are arising from these templates.

01:17:53 Have you tried shooting laser beams on your...

01:17:59 I haven't because the laser technology required to get synchronization is very expensive,

01:18:05 and I don't want to do that.

01:18:06 That's just not necessary.

01:18:08 I've crossed these things.

01:18:09 But you would learn something.

01:18:11 I would learn a lot, but I would spend a lot.

01:18:13 Right.

01:18:14 I mean, that's lasers now.

01:18:16 Yes, yes, yes.

01:18:17 Lasers are now the hype.

01:18:19 You know, these expensive, extremely short pulse lasers are now not quite the workhorse,

01:18:26 but the cutting-edge tool for the analysis of high-speed transient phenomena, certainly in chemistry.

01:18:32 And it would be beautiful to apply that kind of technology.

01:18:35 Well, that's how we could find an alternative.

01:18:38 That's exactly what I'm saying.

01:18:40 I don't know whether these things are dielectric or metallic in nature.

01:18:43 Is it going to reflect it?

01:18:45 Is it going to absorb it?

01:18:46 What's it going to do?

01:18:47 You've got to even get that far back.

01:18:48 Well, that's an experiment.

01:18:49 That's experimental, I think.

01:18:51 Because the objects look black in ordinary light.

01:18:55 What's happening are the wavelengths.

01:18:58 You don't know.

01:19:00 You'd have to go check it.

01:19:01 I haven't been that way.

01:19:03 Ah, that's a good experiment.

01:19:05 But I think at least three cameras will shed some light as an inertial fusion.

01:19:11 Pulses of laser light at different frequencies on those disks.

01:19:16 The dynamics of those objects.

01:19:19 When did you discover these plasmas?

01:19:21 Very nice.

01:19:23 Very, very nice.

01:19:24 This was just an accidental thing.

01:19:27 I was working on destabilizing electrons, and I ran into this effect.

01:19:31 And now I'm back to destabilizing electrons.

01:19:34 I don't think you can destabilize electrons.

01:19:39 Well, I see fractional electrons.

01:19:41 This is just electromagnetic interaction between your electrons.

01:19:45 Do you believe in fractional electronic charging?

01:19:47 No.

01:19:48 People getting Nobel Prizes?

01:19:49 No.

01:19:50 You sure you aren't jealous?

01:19:51 No, no, but it depends on the model you have, of course.

01:19:56 But there's a very nice demonstration by Salama and other people that you cannot have fractional

01:20:04 charges.

01:20:05 Well, wait a minute.

01:20:06 I don't know.

01:20:07 Wait a minute.

01:20:09 It may be that you cannot take a single electron, say, and make a fractional electron.

01:20:17 But in a sense, the quarks or partons may have fractional charges.

01:20:22 And certainly, if you take, let's say you take an electron, positron, high energy, you

01:20:27 can create quarks.

01:20:29 So you're obviously in that model of fractional charge and quarks.

01:20:34 You can do that, but then you're breaking that, how do you say, non-crisscrossing of

01:20:40 the lines.

01:20:41 Never mind.

01:20:42 Let me give you a rundown on my energy trail, and then you can see where I stand and how

01:20:48 I'm clutching and grasping for something else.

01:20:51 I started off thinking the energy we see must be coming from the zero-point energies.

01:20:57 I got that notion out of a paper by Bergstrom many years ago.

01:21:01 And I worked and worked and worked, and I could not prove that there is even a zero-point

01:21:05 energy around.

01:21:06 I couldn't buy a meter.

01:21:07 I couldn't make a meter that was trustworthy.

01:21:09 No, you have it because you made a paper.

01:21:11 I don't believe that, necessarily, because that isn't my kind of meter, and it's too

01:21:14 feeble.

01:21:15 You say, oh, it's 10 to the 5th Newton meters, but that's still under the pressure of a truck

01:21:19 tire.

01:21:20 It's 150 PSI, and it's trivial.

01:21:22 And you already have the closest dimension, one in Hankstrom, that you can get.

01:21:25 So I have to shut that aside in my practical world.

01:21:29 And then I said, well, OK, they're right.

01:21:31 It is fusion.

01:21:32 It's some kind of damn nuclear process.

01:21:34 And I worked and worked and beat my head in the wall on that one.

01:21:38 I found, finally, I can use this process to create nuclear effects, but it is not essentially

01:21:46 so.

01:21:47 The process creates the energy, or I can make it create the other nuclear effects.

01:21:51 So the cold fusion work, as far as I'm concerned, is using some basic process that's all electronic.

01:21:58 I can do everything all electronically, and if I wanted to make a nuclear transmutation,

01:22:04 I can do that.

01:22:05 Yeah, yeah, but the problem is, what is an electron?

01:22:08 I mean, if it's really spinning, it has something more than the Coulomb potential.

01:22:15 I don't look at it that way.

01:22:17 I just look at it as, I'm only using electrons.

01:22:20 Interesting things are happening.

01:22:22 What can I say?

01:22:23 All right.

01:22:24 In this condition, I came up with this question for you.

01:22:33 If a photon has a rest mass, then why does it move?

01:22:39 Why does it not rest?

01:22:41 Where does the energy come from for this motion?

01:22:45 If it has a rest mass, it is influenced by gravity?

01:22:48 No, no, no.

01:22:49 Why is it moving at almost the speed of light?

01:22:52 Where does the energy come from?

01:22:54 Since all particles, they usually rest.

01:22:58 We are only observing photons which move close to the velocity of light,

01:23:04 but they should be slow photons.

01:23:07 Yeah, why don't we see...

01:23:09 Missing mass.

01:23:11 99% of the...

01:23:13 Why don't we see in between?

01:23:15 We should see something...

01:23:17 There must be...

01:23:19 You guys?

01:23:21 Could we have Ken finish?

01:23:25 A few more lines.

01:23:27 And then maybe we can all go to lunch together and break up into the informal stuff.

01:23:31 There's some food here.

01:23:35 So this electronic self-organization thing is weak.

01:23:38 I've done stuff, but it needs bolstering up.

01:23:41 It is a technique that I believe in a lot.

01:23:44 I think it's the only thing that we're going to have...

01:23:46 We have to do this before we get to really complex systems.

01:23:49 But when you see one of these very complex organisms,

01:23:54 and if all this stuff in it goes black, you won't see it.

01:23:57 So be prepared for the damnedest surprises you've ever run into.

01:24:00 I don't know what's going to happen.

01:24:02 I just say it's on the path.

01:24:04 It's one of the natural barriers you have to go through to get anywhere.

01:24:07 What's the...

01:24:09 Can you show us some of these pictures?

01:24:13 Yeah, yeah.

01:24:15 Not right now, standing in front.

01:24:17 I've got a few lines.

01:24:18 Sure, sure.

01:24:19 Let you choose.

01:24:20 Okay.

01:24:21 The guy can fight over who gets the choice.

01:24:25 We need a special sheath.

01:24:27 The kind of sheaths that I've been seeing and using are more or less natural.

01:24:32 They're not complex.

01:24:33 They're not structured enough for protecting the kind of entity that we want to deal with here.

01:24:42 We need some refined electronic structure.

01:24:44 All the electronic devices that I've created are in the form to emulate standard electronics.

01:24:55 That's because that's all that's acceptable.

01:24:58 These things that I did are even unacceptable, even though they have standard names.

01:25:03 This is a shift register.

01:25:04 This is an amplifier.

01:25:06 You know, this is a switching, this or that.

01:25:09 Yes, they are.

01:25:11 Many other things that are what I call based on arena concept,

01:25:15 where you essentially just throw a lot of stuff, these things, into a particular area and say,

01:25:24 go for it, guys, and then build your sheath.

01:25:28 Go out and do your job.

01:25:31 Now, as I said, the energy part will always be an intrinsic part of the machine,

01:25:37 so don't worry about a plug to plug it into.

01:25:39 I'll guarantee you energy.

01:25:42 The cycle that I've been through is what I was just going to say a minute ago.

01:25:46 I thought I'd finished with the electronic version of a thermal output,

01:25:54 but then I found I can beat that.

01:25:58 I go pure electric just as easy, but I have to do a little more.

01:26:01 Several times in my work in this energy aspect,

01:26:04 I've arrived at the point of being able to engineer something,

01:26:07 only to find that there was something underneath that,

01:26:11 that if I indeed came out with that engineering version,

01:26:14 and I know that usually sinks a guy.

01:26:17 You have to devote your life to propagating that,

01:26:20 that if I came out with that,

01:26:22 it's a big giveaway as to what the origin of the source really is under there,

01:26:27 and it will blow you right out of the commercial water, so to speak.

01:26:30 You will have to go find the base,

01:26:34 so I'm digging now as close as I can to the base,

01:26:37 and I'm right at an engineering level again.

01:26:39 Don't be surprised to see me disappear into photonics or something like that,

01:26:43 but that explains why it's taken so darn long to do this.

01:26:48 I've had to cycle through this engineering.

01:26:51 Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

01:26:52 What you're saying is that you discover some new phenomenon,

01:26:57 and you start to, as one of your activities,

01:27:01 imagine a commercial engineering application, begin work on that,

01:27:05 realize that the phenomenon that you're seeing

01:27:09 is just really a surface phenomenon of a deeper level of fundamental physics,

01:27:16 and so why bother commercializing this single aspect

01:27:22 when then anyone who follows that path would be able to find the deeper aspect

01:27:26 which leads to all kinds of other developments,

01:27:29 so you go down to the deeper aspect, begin again to cycle.

01:27:33 Yes. Now, to make that point very clear,

01:27:36 for example, in this last paper, I said,

01:27:40 well, I can produce a phase change.

01:27:43 What is a phase?

01:27:44 A phase change. I can turn water into gas.

01:27:47 I can do it with this disruption process without having to thermalize it,

01:27:52 but it comes out as gas, and we'll run a little steam engine.

01:27:55 We're playing with things like that.

01:27:57 Now, that's a thermal process, and you think, oh, I got it.

01:28:00 It's phase change is the basis.

01:28:02 No, it isn't. Of course not.

01:28:04 It's something else under that that's making it really interesting.

01:28:07 But you could certainly make vape of that, right?

01:28:11 Oh, you sure can make vape of that.

01:28:13 But what he's saying is why bother patenting and commercializing

01:28:16 and spending his precious years on that

01:28:18 when as soon as you start investigating that,

01:28:21 you realize that you can transform.

01:28:24 You can have much more general transformations, shall we say,

01:28:28 if you pursue it at a deeper level.

01:28:30 Yeah, but if it works with water, it works really well.

01:28:33 I have to consider how much effort it takes, though.

01:28:35 Yeah, of course.

01:28:36 Each one of those finishing things.

01:28:37 Then you're having so much fun.

01:28:39 I have more fun doing the other stuff.

01:28:41 Well, what you're saying is that you need a modern workforce.

01:28:46 I don't know. You need a workforce that didn't tell any secrets

01:28:49 because, you know, if the workforce goes out there and starts talking

01:28:52 and I'm still working alone, it's going to take me forever

01:28:56 when that workforce tells secrets.

01:28:57 Yeah, but it sounds to me, Ken, like realistically, you could use

01:29:01 Ken Shoulders could be a group of 30, 40, 50 people.

01:29:08 For some kinds of work, yes.

01:29:10 For development work, of course.

01:29:12 For that other kind that I do, that I have set special methodology for,

01:29:17 which I'm so specially developed for, which I'm worked out of shape

01:29:20 and almost in human form, I can't do it with even more than what I've got.

01:29:26 My son and I work together.

01:29:27 Yeah, but you're having so much fun doing that.

01:29:30 Well, it's slow.

01:29:32 I like to speed it up.

01:29:34 That's where my appeal now is to you guys.

01:29:39 Does he have a grandson?

01:29:41 My son.

01:29:42 No, but you have a grandson.

01:29:43 No, that's how old he is now.

01:29:45 How old is your son?

01:29:46 Because he's spending all his time in the lab with you.

01:29:48 He's 39.

01:29:49 Well, he has to raise a grandson, right?

01:29:52 You go talk to him.

01:29:53 I'm tired of talking about that.

01:29:55 He's in the lab with you all the time.

01:29:57 You're not having any fun.

01:29:59 Well, he's got his own special project now.

01:30:01 For example, we finally got to the point that he got so into this injector,

01:30:12 this micro thruster, because we make engines and we make little funny flying machines,

01:30:16 which is another story I'll put on you this afternoon.

01:30:19 But he is on to this business of using the injector.

01:30:24 Now, this is kind of proprietary stuff, so please don't leak it all over the place,

01:30:28 which gives you diesel-like performance with a thing that seems to be a fuel-injected engine

01:30:34 that can start with anything, practically, that you can get into the fluid line called fuel.

01:30:40 And even though it's just an internal combustion engine,

01:30:43 it's using diesel cycle with total combustion,

01:30:46 because what we shoot in is absolutely atomized.

01:30:49 I mean, not as droplets, but atomized as ions.

01:30:52 So it's a spark plug that we fire many times.

01:30:56 We can keep our pressures up, and then when it's all over,

01:30:58 the output power is gloriously clean, gloriously clean.

01:31:02 You're producing energy, eh?

01:31:04 It's a thermal form, but it turns out to be so practical

01:31:08 that we're going to keep playing with that.

01:31:11 He's just really into it.

01:31:13 There will be little tiny engines.

01:31:15 There will be just things made to replace batteries and portable devices

01:31:18 and give you lots of output power.

01:31:20 That's all they're about.

01:31:21 It sounds like, are you aware of the MIT microturbine project?

01:31:25 I am.

01:31:26 That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

01:31:29 I'm after efficiency.

01:31:31 You've got to be.

01:31:32 That thing is just crazy.

01:31:33 Their problem is they'll have a little microturbine,

01:31:35 but you'll need a suitcase full of fuel to run it.

01:31:38 Everybody knew that for a long time.

01:31:42 Well, I believe of all these tiny little parts,

01:31:45 put some emissions here and there,

01:31:47 and we could get together a really interesting sideshow.

01:31:52 Make an entity.

01:31:53 Instead of making the entity of us ride in a big old aluminum can,

01:31:57 make the entity just go,

01:31:59 because the thing we're talking about building is at home anywhere.

01:32:04 I understand that.

01:32:05 I understand that basic concept.

01:32:07 Now let's take it off the sideshow and put it back on the main beam.

01:32:12 In this somewhere is a standard thrusters, standard energy sources,

01:32:19 standard everything, even standard electronic control, if you wish.

01:32:24 But life would be a lot better on me as an investigator

01:32:28 if I could spend a little time working on scaling these things up,

01:32:33 scaling them up.

01:32:34 Scaling.

01:32:35 Making ball lightning out of them.

01:32:37 Oh, yeah.

01:32:39 I'm not going to attempt to do that,

01:32:42 but they've always been feeble, and they've missed.

01:32:46 So I know a way now that looks real good,

01:32:50 and I'd like to take a shot at that.

01:32:52 That's one thing that's common to every usage of these EVs

01:32:57 except the electronic entity form, the calculation.

01:33:01 There you want it to be small.

01:33:03 You want to pack it away.

01:33:05 But for all these effects like energy production and propulsion,

01:33:10 you'd like to have more than a 20 micron.

01:33:14 Yeah, yeah.

01:33:15 Do you have any sort of autobiographical memoirs?

01:33:18 Well, his book is similar.

01:33:20 His book is like that, yeah.

01:33:22 Now that book, though, is not up to date, right?

01:33:25 It was done in 87, I think.

01:33:27 When did you work with him on it?

01:33:29 Before.

01:33:30 Before, yeah.

01:33:32 He's such a tattletale.

01:33:33 God, he tells everything you ever tell him,

01:33:35 so you couldn't work with him.

01:33:37 The minute I spotted these funny things, go home, you hear.

01:33:42 What's his major?

01:33:45 What?

01:33:46 Major physicist.

01:33:47 Oh, yeah.

01:33:48 I don't know.

01:33:49 Yeah.

01:33:50 Did you work on amicable firms with him?

01:33:54 Sure.

01:33:55 He's a thief.

01:33:56 That is, he'll steal your money, in effect.

01:34:00 You take him to dinner, for example, in a nice fancy place,

01:34:03 and you pay a big thing.

01:34:05 Guy comes around with a cigar box at the end of all that thing.

01:34:08 Cigar.

01:34:09 He tries it.

01:34:10 Oh, that's nice.

01:34:11 I'll take the box.

01:34:12 Put the box on the bill, five bucks each.

01:34:15 I call that stealing.

01:34:17 Hey, one other person we know, Robert Keane.

01:34:20 Oh, yeah.

01:34:21 Keane?

01:34:22 You know Keane?

01:34:23 Yeah, Keane is a friend of mine, too.

01:34:25 We used to work with Keane.

01:34:26 We brought Keane into the project.

01:34:27 To the Jupiter Toy Company, right?

01:34:29 Yeah.

01:34:30 So I knew, one of my times with Bostick was when I picked him up from the house in Portola Valley.

01:34:40 You didn't bring him to you.

01:34:41 I don't know if I brought him or picked him up.

01:34:43 I can't actually remember.

01:34:44 The military could rent it that place.

01:34:45 Yeah, right.

01:34:46 And I remember, no, I think I picked him up.

01:34:49 We sure it's not the same military?

01:34:51 No, I think it is.

01:34:53 It's not the same.

01:34:54 No, wait a minute, Jack.

01:34:55 The Bill Church that I've been to.

01:34:57 Clark Gable.

01:34:58 Identical.

01:34:59 Oh, he looks like Clark Gable.

01:35:00 And he's the church's fried chicken family.

01:35:04 Yeah, but Bill Church's family is from Arkansas, too.

01:35:07 He's not from Arkansas.

01:35:09 He's Texas, man.

01:35:10 Okay, Texas, okay.

01:35:12 Anyway, Keane is also from Texas.

01:35:17 Governor Keane, I'm hoping he'll come spend a little time with us, maybe next month.

01:35:26 He's in France right now.

01:35:29 Anyway, of course, it'll be great to have you guys together again, however briefly.

01:35:34 I used to know him when he had his big complimentation time.

01:35:38 Lou Lincoln.

01:35:39 He used to do a very simple and cheap experiment.

01:35:44 He used to fly into Houston.

01:35:47 And you shoot him at the least.

01:35:50 He's catching his family money.

01:35:53 And then you'll know about the intelligence.

01:35:57 Okay, he's got a little thin plan.

01:35:59 He's producing them all the time.

01:36:03 So you just bring a laser beam, a chopped laser beam.

01:36:07 Don't forget the synchronization thing.

01:36:09 No, no, but you shoot at various frequencies and you look at the light of the laser scattering.

01:36:15 The synchronization of the pulse of the laser.

01:36:17 No, no, you don't need to synchronize it.

01:36:19 Oh, you want to just shoot them by.

01:36:21 You want to shoot them by.

01:36:22 You see, look out for the scatter problem.

01:36:24 Yeah.

01:36:25 Because then you've got a huge background.

01:36:26 Ah, but that's very interesting.

01:36:28 The background is not fun because it's just laser light.

01:36:31 No, no, you shoot various frequencies of laser light.

01:36:35 Take any frequency you want, but you still have to have a pulse of it.

01:36:39 And you have to have that pulse occur at the time that you're going to analyze one of these things moving at a tenth the velocity of light.

01:36:45 And you've got to get. . .

01:36:46 You mean your ball lighting moves at the velocity of light?

01:36:50 No.

01:36:51 Typically we run at a tenth the velocity of light.

01:36:53 One-tenth C is the propagation velocity of these EVs?

01:36:55 Yeah, that's a normal, nice.

01:36:56 Let me ask you another question.

01:36:57 What is the lifetime of an EV?

01:37:00 Have you established an upper bound or what's the. . .

01:37:03 In a guide, it doesn't die.

01:37:07 It can be kept circulating if the guide is the right kind of guide.

01:37:12 Now, so their guides are a holy part of their life.

01:37:15 If you shoot them out in a vacuum and they're unsheathed, feral, virgin, new EVs, they'll last about ten to the minus nine seconds and they're gone.

01:37:22 And what's the longest you've ever kept one alive in the guide?

01:37:28 Milliseconds because you run out of room pretty quick.

01:37:31 Is there any way for them to circulate?

01:37:33 Oh, yeah, that's part of the program of making large EVs.

01:37:35 When we get to that program, we circulate.

01:37:37 Right.

01:37:38 See, my whole work so far has been on a linear basis.

01:37:41 I create them, I run them across the interaction zone, I destroy them.

01:37:45 You've got to do everything in that short time period.

01:37:47 Oh, that's where you went to. . .

01:37:49 So now I have. . .

01:37:50 I've used trap techniques all of my life for circulating things and holding things.

01:37:55 Now, I want to apply those techniques to this little gizmo to create them, make them grow, measure them.

01:38:02 And then, if you want to interact them with life, easy.

01:38:05 Yeah, because you get them and it's stuck in a trap.

01:38:07 You get them in a trap, you know right where they are, basically.

01:38:10 And so, is that like a near-term project you want to start working on is trapping the EVs?

01:38:21 Sure, absolutely.

01:38:22 No, it's trapping.

01:38:23 The key thing is circulation.

01:38:27 Circulation is the route to a whole new set of measurement methods and working methods

01:38:31 where you can do the organizational tricks, you can do the creation tricks, you can do the growth tricks.

01:38:37 Everything in there, it looks like, can be done.

01:38:39 Now, let me ask you one logistical question about the next hour or two.

01:38:46 I think it would be good if we all went and had a meal together.

01:38:51 Is there some material you can bring with you that we can pass around during the meal that can get a stain or two on it?

01:38:59 Or should we leave everything here and come back or look at or pass some things around now?

01:39:03 Two classes of materials.

01:39:05 Those things in the box, some box over there.

01:39:08 I can leave with you.

01:39:10 All right.

01:39:11 So, if you want me to come over.

01:39:12 Only that thing you can leave?

01:39:13 No, a number of different things.

01:39:14 There's plenty to look at, believe me.

01:39:16 You don't want to look at any of this anyway.

01:39:19 I will have to take some time to point out a few things before I leave.

01:39:25 At lunch, let's just go to lunch and just wave our hands.

01:39:28 All right.

01:39:29 Let's go now then.

01:39:30 Okay.